When Max moved from New Zealand to Australia, he was in disbelief over the difference in wages.
In his first job in the country, working as a dishwasher, he says he earned more per hour than he did as a university-qualified environmental monitoring technician in New Zealand.
"If that doesn't say something, I don't know what does," Max told triple j hack.
Data from Statistics New Zealand shows Kiwis are leaving the country in record numbers.
New Zealand citizen departures are up 8 per cent on last year, with almost 73,000 people leaving the country in the 12 months to September 2025.
Nearly 40 per cent of those leaving are aged 18 to 30, fuelling fears of a "brain drain" hollowing out New Zealand's future workforce.
However, a New Zealand economist argues there is no cause for alarm, noting that global workforce flows continue to bring skilled migrants into the country too.
Max is in his 20s and now lives in northern New South Wales.
He says he moved across the Tasman in late 2023 to be closer to family, and with cost-of-living pressures climbing in New Zealand the decision was a no-brainer.
"I think the current government is really unappealing for a younger generation because as house prices increase and living costs increase, wages aren't increasing to match them," Max said.
The median age of those who left New Zealand in the most recent reporting period was 29 years old, according to Statistics New Zealand.
In the year to March 2025, almost 60 per cent of New Zealand-citizen migrant departures were to Australia.
Sophie, 25, moved over with her partner Sam earlier this year.
"We moved for a multitude of reasons, but primarily because the job opportunities in Aussie are way more abundant," Sophie told hack.
"You get paid better, living costs are cheaper, and the weather's better, and the waves are better … sorry New Zealand, love you."
Sophie says a lot of her friends are deciding to do the same thing.
"I feel like it's been one of those things where you're in your bubble, and everyone's like-minded, you're drawn to doing similar things, and so everyone in our friend group is definitely exiting."
But some of those like Sophie, who have chosen to leave, say the two countries do have cultural differences — and there are things about New Zealand that they miss.
"I mean, big ups to New Zealand for being way more supportive of our Indigenous culture, that's a huge thing I miss about home," Sophie said.
Living on this side of the ditch comes with challenges too.
Jack is in his 20s and living in Australia — but he's on crutches after an injury, which means he can't work right now.
But because New Zealanders living in Australia do not have the same entitlements as Australian citizens — they must have lived in Australia for 10 years in order to access some benefits like Centrelink and study payments, for example — he's deciding to head back to New Zealand, at least temporarily.
"It's fine, I get it, I'll just go back home … stitch up, but at the same time you can't control the world," Jack said.
Don't worry, economist urges
University of Auckland associate professor in economics Asha Sundaram says there is a lot of reflection in New Zealand right now about the cost of living and low wages.
"That makes it very difficult for young people starting out on their careers," she told triple j hack.
"New Zealand's productivity is low in comparison to a lot of advanced countries and there's a lot of thought being put into why that is."
But Dr Sundaram believes there is no need to worry about a "brain drain" because the global movement of people is normal and can benefit New Zealand in aggregate.
"The global flow of talent to its most productive use is a good thing for the global economy," Professor Sundaram told hack.
"And secondly, Kiwis leaving often send back resources — not just capital and remittances, but also ideas and technology."
'Brain drain' or 'brain exchange'?
"Brain drain" and "brain exchange" are terms used to describe the flow of people between Australia and New Zealand.
"I think the concern in New Zealand is that it is not a one-to-one exchange with Australia," Dr Sundaram said.
"In other words, we have a lot of New Zealanders leaving for Australia, but we don't see as many Australians coming."
Dr Sundaram said a better way to think about the outflow of New Zealanders to other countries was as a "brain exchange" set in the context of a more global flow of people.
"It is true that we send people to Australia, but then we do receive talent from other countries," she said, referring to an inflow of 59,000 people into New Zealand, with the highest numbers coming from China, India and the Philippines," she said.
Dr Sundaram also suggested more could be done to retain and attract people back to New Zealand, such as investing resources into more innovative sectors as well as in health and education.
As for whether some of the young New Zealanders who recently arrived in Australia are planning to return to Aotearoa one day, it's a mixed picture.
"I had always pictured myself to move home eventually," Sam told hack.
"But now I'm here, I'm kind of like, 'I really like it here' and don't see myself moving home."
